Lounge Talk

Eastnor Land Rover Experiance 2011 : Terracan Jas


Yesterday we went to Eastnor Castle near Ledbury with work for a fun day out off roading. Our convoy Consisted of 2x Disco's, 3x Defender 110's and a RR Sport. Oddly enough There were 2x more Discovery's but they were not available due to having there bonnets up.
I got to drive the Discovery. The latest model. I have to say I was very impressed. Putting all bias opinions aside its a very well engineered vehicle, in particular the terrain response dial and road handling.
It had quite good articulation for a vehicle with independant suspension. The Terrain response has several settings, changing engine rev limit, traction settings, diff lock etc. And once you understood what the settings did It was relativly simple to use even for novices in Vehicle terminology. It coped well on hill ascents and descents, ruts even with fairly road biased tyres. Traction was good in mud. It was quite fast on road, cornering well, the auto trans pulled away quite well, the engine was quiet and ride was smooth.

Overall a great day out.

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I will say that Its a good job that Work paid for the trip, because the prices are HIGH. You do get a vehicle, fuel and a instructor but not at £185 per head.
The Discovery has some really great Off road gizmo's but for me Its way too much electronics and gadgets. And although it can do it in the rough it certainly seemed to be suited more on road.
On road in the Auto Disco 4, I noticed that the 6 speed kicked down a gear on the hills. Malvern in general is quite a hilly landscape but I did find it bemusing that the Disco would not hold the gear on the hills through 30mph-60mph, something that could possibly effect fuel economy especially if you were towing.


The only bad thing about the Visit was the Instructors. They did hold a vast sum of knowledge between them and they did instruct you professionally but they are very opinionated on other 4x4 manufactures. It would seem that Anything other than a Green Oval badge was quite inferior. - Especially when I mentioned that I had owned Landcruisers, Patrols, Shoguns through to the Bad Ass Terry. I got quite abit of abuse from saying that. Which was a shame, because there was no need for it and it lowered the overall professional image of the Off Road Instructors.


But I can say hands down I would Not change it for my Terracan. Ill spare you the reasons why.

Its a shame about the continuing reliability woes and High purchase price because it really is a Tool.


Jason

Good report. Clearly you had a fun day out at someone else's expense (don't blame you, I wouldn't pay for such a course if it was my money) but really, why are you surprised at their attitude?

"The only bad thing about the Visit was the Instructors. They did hold a vast sum of knowledge between them and they did instruct you professionally but they are very opinionated on other 4x4 manufactures. It would seem that Anything other than a Green Oval badge was quite inferior. - Especially when I mentioned that I had owned Landcruisers, Patrols, Shoguns through to the Bad Ass Terry. I got quite a bit of abuse from saying that. Which was a shame, because there was no need for it and it lowered the overall professional image of the Off Road Instructors."

The staff are paid by Land Rover Limited, so of course they are going to be biased. Even if they said tongue-in-cheek - "Yes, we know Jap vehicles are better off-road/technically/better build quality/reliable/or a million and one other opinions, they could easily lose their jobs. Big companies such as Land Rover will employ 'secret shoppers' who will act as punters just to test the 'quality control, so employees always 'tow the company line' like it or not. Don't therefore be to hard on the staff, for I'm sure the Toyota staff at 'Off-Road Japan' will be just as loyal. Such is life!

As for modern vehicles full of electronic wizardry, they are all great until they break down, and beak down they all will ... eventually! Again, such is life!

Tom

This is exactly my gripe with a proportion of LR owners, their bias, and anything non LR is not worth having in their somewhat limited opinions. It really upsets some of them when the Shogun flies past tham when stuck and i derive great pleasure from doing so when they adopt such an attitude. This is the reason i like this site, different vehicles, different points of view, and discussions and not arguments about what other people choose as a 4X4; basically it brings out people of all types and with different vehicles into our chosen hobby.

LR always buy any new 4X4 and strip it to examine it, it may be the new Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan, etc, and all major manufacturers do the same, so its funny to see a system found on another vehicle suddenly appear on a LR model, and of course vice versa.

Assassin wrote:

This is the reason i like this site, different vehicles, different points of view, and discussions and not arguments about what other people choose as a 4X4; basically it brings out people of all types and with different vehicles into our chosen hobby.

Indeed.

I think that Overland, touring and travelling requires more common sense, restraint and preparation than the general genre of off roading. Most people I have encountered accept what's what, and how to make the most out of it. Enjoying the journey as much as the destination and not necessarily concerned about the "IN" thing, what's mainstream, popular or finding the deepest mud hole.



TJ

Assassin wrote:

Tom

This is exactly my gripe with a proportion of LR owners, their bias, and anything non LR is not worth having in their somewhat limited opinions. It really upsets some of them when the Shogun flies past tham when stuck and i derive great pleasure from doing so when they adopt such an attitude. This is the reason i like this site, different vehicles, different points of view, and discussions and not arguments about what other people choose as a 4X4; basically it brings out people of all types and with different vehicles into our chosen hobby.

LR always buy any new 4X4 and strip it to examine it, it may be the new Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan, etc, and all major manufacturers do the same, so its funny to see a system found on another vehicle suddenly appear on a LR model, and of course vice versa.

Entirely the opposite.
The Land Cruiser owners tell. Note TELL, me that my Land Rover is unreliable and I shouldn't go anywhere with it.

I had one Cruiser owner tell me that he NEVER did anything to his Cruiser. Unil I said at ten years old his Cruiser must be in need of TLC as he'd just told me he never serviced it. That didn't go down well so then he told me he'd replaced the brake pads the week before. Not done anything to it ???

Oh yes. what other vehicle can LEGALLY tow 3.5 tonne ? Not a Cruiser
As a mechanic I don't like to pass comment on anything until I drive one. What an uncomfortable vehicle the single cab Cruiser is with those harsh leaf springs

Have yo been asked to pull a grader stuck above the hubs in mud out ? I have

Shew a Cruiser owner a picture of a Land Rover pulling a Cruiser with a rope and the Cruiser owner will insist that the Cruiser is PUSHING the Land Rover

Horses for courses I say. There are blinkered owners of all marques, the sort of people that will never be convinced their pride and joy has failings in any department. Me, I just let them get on with it on their Land Rover/Landcruiser/Suzuki forums, after all that's where they will get the most support ... from fellow anoraks!

I reckon Jas has it spot on when he says, "I think that Overland, touring and travelling requires more common sense, restraint and preparation than the general genre of off roading."

Couldn't agree more mate. Yes we all have prefernces when it come to vehicles, but it's the planning, preparation, driving skill (in adverse conditions we are not normally used to), and 'bush machanics' that makes 'overlanding' so darn rewarding. I've never yet seen an owner stranded in the middle of nowhere refuse a tow mearly because the person assisting is driving a Landy/Jap/Jeep or whatever is his/her pet hate; funny that! Couple those attributes to meeting different cultures and experiencing pastures new, you have the basis for our great pastime. Long may it continue.

I would agree with those sentiments Tom, its about our hobby, not the vehicles we use for the hobby.

Gemini:

I have driven all sorts of off road vehicles over many years, and we predominantly used LR until the point they were so unreliable, we then introduced the Daihatsu Fourtrak, the Trak was more comfortable, just as good off road if the driving style was altered to suit the vehicle, and very reliable as well as about one third cheaper to run than the LR. Remember also these would all spend weeks off road and running in 4W drive and always in low range, and never come out of it until it was servicing time and they had to go back onto solid surfaces to be driven onto low loaders for transfer to the workshops. Toyota pick ups were later introduced for lighter work, again these were very reliable compared to the LR, but the Mitsubishi pick ups we had were even more reliable then the Toyotas, if slightly worse off road.

So what can tow 3.5 tonnes apart from the LR?

Isuzu Trooper
Mitsubishi Shogun LWB
Daihatsu Fourtrak
Toyota Land Cruiser V8 / Amazon
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Nissan Patrol

Thats just off the top of my head.

There are many parameters people judge vehicles by, my major parameter is a disabled partner of many years, she is very restricted in what vehicle we buy, and for me it was a toss up between the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Nissan Patrol, and later the Shogun entered the frame. The jeep was dismissed as having too many problems, rear axle at 60,000 miles, steering problems, auto transmission issues, and front axle issues. The Nissan patrol was underpowered, and she could not get comfy in either.
This left the Shogun, comfy for her, she can travel miles off road in it, nice on road for me, and plenty of space for kit we carry, and reliability comes as standard.

One saying i have always have ringing in my ears was from someone with 50 years of off road driving experience worldwide, he always said " a good off road with a bad driver is a failure, a bad off road vehicle with a good driver is a success" wise words.

None of those according to my information go to 3.5TONNE


2.8 TONNE yes

Then your information is wrong, i have quoted the manufacturers actual figures.

Plesae keep it fiendly,

Sorry been out all day.
This was discussed some time ago on SA4X4. The information make interesting reading.

The figures I have come from Caravan and outdoor Life.


Three Isuzu are listed
350LE GVM of trailer 1400kg
240 GVM 1400kg
KB250LE4X2 GVM 1285

The Shogun isn't listed, neither is the Fourtrak
All I have for the Toyota is the Cruiser 70 station wagon at 1330kg

Jeep yes we found that one.

Nissan Patrol 3,000 Most of the Nissans are rated at 3,000kg

The other one is the Hummer that's rated at 3,5000 kg

Have a read of this post. There's some good points in there. The best being that you can't legally tow a Hi Lux with another Hi Lux.

http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=84121

Both SAPS and VOSA are doing spot checks. Even with non trailered vehicles. If it looks well laded then it's onto a weighbridge. Not just GVW but individual axle weights as well as a friend of mine found out on his way home from Morroco.

Quite a fue of the Jeeps could tow 3500. The Commander, Cherokee & Grand Cherokee mostly 2003-2006 models. And I can remember seeing that a 1995/97 Cherokee 4.0L could legaly haul 5000 in america.

What do you need to tow that is near 3500kg?

I've towed a Twin Axle caravan with clothes, camping & Fishing equipment and that was barely over 1800. A 18 foot Trailer stacked with European oak railway sleepers and I mean stacked, and that was just under 2300 inc trailer. Delivered a new king cab pick-up on a aluminium flat-bed beaver trailer and that was in at 2700.

The practical applications of the "3500" bench mark is not often used.
And most people I know in the Motor trade who need to go over 2800 tend to use a Flat Bed 7.5 Ton Lorry to deliver goods and vehicle. This is Because its safer on braking, easier to drive, cheaper to insure and the fuel efficency is not that different. 12-15mpg.


Terracan Jas

Terracan Jas wrote:

What do you need to tow that is near 3500kg?

I've towed a Twin Axle caravan with clothes, camping & Fishing equipment and that was barely over 1800. A 18 foot Trailer stacked with European oak railway sleepers and I mean stacked, and that was just under 2300 inc trailer. Delivered a new king cab pick-up on a aluminium flat-bed beaver trailer and that was in at 2700.

The practical applications of the "3500" bench mark is not often used.



Terracan Jas

Plant and machinery generally get up to the 3.5 tonne limit quite quickly, as does building materials. We tend to suffer most with green woodchip, green timber and then also carting the tractor or chipper and tools etc around.

For some reason, a lot of the current model commercial 4x4's seem to be well down on towing capacity.

Van wise, the only thing we could find was an iveco turbo daily, which ended up as a derated 5 tonner (but at least it had the 140hp engine)

It is odd. I'm pretty sure that the vehicles could handle it, there just plated different.
I remember when we were selling the Nissan D22 2.5tdi new imported from cyprus. You could buy a commercial spec which was plated to tow more and came with factory uprated rear leaf springs and shocks certified by Nissan UK.
A similar process is available for the same shape pick-up but its called the Nissan NP300 seen in the UK available from new.


Would be good if you could get a 4x4 with air brakes....

TJ

Terracan Jas wrote:

Would be good if you could get a 4x4 with air brakes....

TJ

You can AFAIK get a defender fitted with air brakes fro mthe factory but it only gives you an extra 500kg capacity.

Yaks have the right idea with huge trailers on electric brakes.

Chris S wrote:

Terracan Jas wrote:

Would be good if you could get a 4x4 with air brakes....

TJ

You can AFAIK get a defender fitted with air brakes fro mthe factory but it only gives you an extra 500kg capacity.

Yaks have the right idea with huge trailers on electric brakes.

Well "Yaks" are beasts of burden.

Figures from VOSA for UK specification vehicles registered in the UK, excluding personal imports or modified vehicles

X Trail 2000 Kg
Terrano 2800 Kg
Patrol 2.8 / 3.0 diesel 3500 Kg

Current Shogun 3.2DiD 197BHp model 3500 Kg
Previous Shogun 3.2Did 158/168 BHP 3300 Kg
2.8 TD 3300 Kg
2.5 TD 2800 Kg
3.0 V6 2800 Kg
3.5 V6 3300 Kg

Toyota Land Cruiser V8 Diesel 3500 Kg

Daihatsu Fourtrak (inc Fieldman) 3500 Kg
Sportrak (all models) 1500/2000 Kg (verify chassis numbers to confirm towing weights)

Jeep Grand Cherokee
Laredo 4.0 3500Kg
4.0 Limited 3500 Kg
4.0 Orvis 3500 Kg
5.2 Limited 3500 Kg
5.9 LX 3500 Kg

2.7 Diesel 3500 Kg
3.0 Diesel 3500 Kg

SSangyong / Daewoo Musso 3.2 3500 Kg

These are the actual figures VOSA use, so are the ones the legislation works to.

Jas:

You can get a 4X4 with air brakes, its called a Unimog.

Much as I love 'em, don't think we're talking about 7 tonners here. You could hardly refer to a Mog as a 'car'.

So why are the UK VOSA figures very different to ROW I wonder ?

Could you give me a link to those figures please

So Tom
Would you refer to either a Defender or a Cruiser, The proper one either single cab or the modified double cab, as a car ?

If everybody on this forum is or will be overlanding, are you considering, towing a 3.5 trailor, i do not thing many are so why all this talk about trailor wights. If you are thinging about taking so mutch gear you would be better of with 4x4 truck.

Talking about whitch 4x4 is better or wors, it all comes down to individuall taest, and dissicusstions between people will and has been talked about for decades.


everbody keep up the good discussions and enjoy

This is the best 4x4 set up I've found. But you have to be careful with trailer weights.

roamingman wrote:

If everybody on this forum is or will be overlanding, are you considering, towing a 3.5 trailor, i do not thing many are so why all this talk about trailor wights. If you are thinging about taking so mutch gear you would be better of with 4x4 truck.

Talking about whitch 4x4 is better or wors, it all comes down to individuall taest, and dissicusstions between people will and has been talked about for decades.


everbody keep up the good discussions and enjoy

Not just a trailer. Maybe another vehicle. The towing laws are the same for both.

Assassin wrote:

Jas:

You can get a 4X4 with air brakes, its called a Unimog.

I know, there amazing! I got to say tho Im taken with the Ural 6x6!

TJ

Tom Mc wrote:

You could hardly refer to a Mog as a 'car'.

I dunno, a 404 for example, is pretty much just a big, portal axled Defender