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 He Git It Wrong Again

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Assassin
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PostSubject: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:21 am

It was an interesting day, we were rigging a new site when a bloke came over to us and asked us if would help him as he needed a pull. We all resisted the temptation to reply, but there were a few grinning faces and some turned away.

When he explained his dilema it became obvious, his vehicle was stuck on a local nearby green lane and his engine had stopped and could not be started, one of our site engineers took one of our Mitsubishi's which was loaded with tools and i accompanied him, when we got to his Discovery we found it well and truly stuck on gloopy mud and it would not start. After a bit of detective work we established what happened, he was winching himself out along this long section of gloopy mud and his engine died while he was winching, we concluded the most obvious cause was he had flattened his battery. With a flat battery his diesel shut off solonoid didn't have enough power to hold it open, so it closed and shut off fuel to his engine, and with a flat battery it wouldn't start.

Fortunately we have a set of 50' jumpleads and a massive battery pack in the Mitsubishi as this is used to start our large diesel engines on our power packs, and we managed to get him in the mud to open his bonnet and connect them, we plugged our ends into the dedicated connectors and it started first time, he ran the engine at high speeds to recharge the battery. After a while he began winching again, and his winch worked but was sluggish, and with our long strops we managed to pull him out as he appeared to have damaged his battery through excessive discharge.

The moral of the story is simple, when winching always fit a good second battery along with a good split charging system as modern engines rely on electricity for them to run, control systems on buth need power as do older diesels fuel shut off valves which may close if the voltage drops and you have a high discharge load on your battery. You spend £££ hundreds on your winch and kit, yet many do not spend a little more to install a second battery, if you only use one battery and use your winch heavily and you discharge your battery, you are going nowhere fast as you lose your engine as well.
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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:33 am


Would it not be ok if you ran the winch with 1x uprated or larger battery with the engine on?
If I used a winch often like a couple times a month I would probably use 2x battery's.

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:50 am

Never used a split charge system. I do use 2 red top batteries. Never had any troubles, not even in the winch events. Always enough power.

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:33 am

If using a single battery and winching it is a good idea to winch for say 2 minutes then a good fast idle for say 5 minutes to get some charge back into the battery.

The main function of a single battery is to start the engine!


Red tops are 50amp hour batteries, C/20 whereas the Odyssey 1500 are 68 amphr c/20 and is a combined starter/leisure battery

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:43 am


Just out of interest other than Volt difference what does a 24V winch offer over a 12V winch?

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:09 am

Lower current draw on a 24 volt over a 12 volt one.

The comp boys often over voltage their winches for what I believe is extra speed.

There is a big difference between what the serious comp boys require from their winches (Some winch modifications can cost £ks) and the need of a overland traveller.

Overland use does not require high line speeds but does require reliability



Brendan

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:07 pm

That was one extremely lucky Disco driver to have you around Assassin. Of course keep chatting about winches, I for one am learning all the time, but the moral of the story here has to be ...

Don't go lanin' on your own!

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:42 pm

Wot Tom said!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:59 pm

I'd second odyssey batteries. I had a load of New pc1700's from the military. Awesome battery, threaded terminals for extras to be easily fixed, gel filled, robust and designed for abuse. Two batteries is ideal but a good single battery is okay as long as you don't winch too long as has been mentioned. Unfortunately i did not head this advice when i fitted my winch. The old single battery i had was on its way out. i thought i'd have a play and winch myself up a small farm track. All was fine on day one, drove home couple of miles and went to bed. Next day thought i'd tidy up the cable on the drum so started disco on drive and let it idle while i freespooled the cable out. As i was winching it back on the drum i thought it odd than the car seemed to stutter as the winch was operated, and assumed it was due to the current draw. It was due to the current draw. The current was drawing from a dead battery and finding no charge was sucking juice straight from the alternator, which could not hold up with this amount of drain for very long meaning the ecu voltage dropped too low to function and decided it had had enough and left for the big scrap heap in the sky. Car stalled and stuck on drive, blown alternator and shafted battery. getting nowhere fast
New battery and 2nd hand alternator, odyssey battery on and all is fine, but i now know to respect how much current has been drawn from the battery. I do have plans for a 2nd battery and split charge once i have fabbed mounts up, so i can run all the extra toys from a seperate fuse box and the keep the winch seperate.

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:52 pm

jellybenitez wrote:
I'd second odyssey batteries. I had a load of New pc1700's from the military. Awesome battery, threaded terminals for extras to be easily fixed, gel filled, robust and designed for abuse. Two batteries is ideal but a good single battery is okay as long as you don't winch too long as has been mentioned. Unfortunately i did not head this advice when i fitted my winch. The old single battery i had was on its way out. i thought i'd have a play and winch myself up a small farm track. All was fine on day one, drove home couple of miles and went to bed. Next day thought i'd tidy up the cable on the drum so started disco on drive and let it idle while i freespooled the cable out. As i was winching it back on the drum i thought it odd than the car seemed to stutter as the winch was operated, and assumed it was due to the current draw. It was due to the current draw. The current was drawing from a dead battery and finding no charge was sucking juice straight from the alternator, which could not hold up with this amount of drain for very long meaning the ecu voltage dropped too low to function and decided it had had enough and left for the big scrap heap in the sky. Car stalled and stuck on drive, blown alternator and shafted battery. getting nowhere fast
New battery and 2nd hand alternator, odyssey battery on and all is fine, but i now know to respect how much current has been drawn from the battery. I do have plans for a 2nd battery and split charge once i have fabbed mounts up, so i can run all the extra toys from a seperate fuse box and the keep the winch seperate.


Do a review in the review section. You clearly know your stuff and think they are good!

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:47 am

All the experts recommend two batteries with a split charging system, and not just for winches, many leisure vehicles now come with leisure batteries to provide power for basic equipment and most leisure vehicle owners are more aware of their power usage.

Here lies the dilema, using twin batteries has advantages as many winches have much newer and more powerful motors than those of old, you can use a standard battery for the vehicle and its functions, along with a much parger battery for winching, if your winch battery fails you still have power to start your engine and run your vehicle. If your winch battery fails the worst that can happen is that you cannot use your winch.

Car batteries are a compromise between durability and cost, like most things with a vehicle, this means if you use a winch you have a choice because you can buy one expensive traction/semi traction battery for your winch and a much cheaper automotive battery for your vehicle. Normal automotive batteries are not designed for the high discharge rates a winch requires for prolonged periods; they are designed for a high discharge rate for 20 seconds only, winch for 3-4 minutes and you can trash a normal automotive battery or shortern its life considerably. Many older vehicles often have low powered dynamos or alternators which are not designed for charging anything other than the manufacturers specified sizes of battery which means they discharge but will not charge unless the engine is running for a long period.

If i were spending the thick end of £1000 on an electric winch i would want the system right, i would fit a decent uprated alternator if mine was an older vehicle, then a bigger battery which is within the range a winch supplier or manufacturer recommends for that winch, many do not, often most automotive batteries are nowhere near big enough to meet the winch manufacturers minimum battery size.
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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:51 am

Tom,

I have fully examined my vehicle today as i am sure i have a twat magnet fitted to the vehicle somewhere, i always seem to find them or come across them.
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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:52 pm

What you fail to forget is there's a lot of them out there! This being the case, with the odds heavily stacked against you, I'm afraid a lifetime of twat-attraction awaits. No

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:41 am

Agreed, but when you take on a truck weighing at over 100 tonnes and over 80 feet long in some cases; its not rocket science to assume you will lose in a fight between it and any car or 4X4.
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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:14 am

Tom Mc wrote:
but the moral of the story here has to be ...

Don't go lanin' on your own!

Yep, but also, WTF was he doing on a lane in that condition in the first place - great way to spoil it for everyone stupid

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:34 am

Tom Mc wrote:
That was one extremely lucky Disco driver to have you around Assassin. Of course keep chatting about winches, I for one am learning all the time, but the moral of the story here has to be ...

Don't go lanin' on your own!

I would say....dont go laning on your own and get stuck Smile

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:14 am

Oh dear, wrist slapping time

This weekend




Easter, a couple of years ago in the Pyrenees






4 years ago in the Simpson desert



Common factor?

All as a solo vehicle.

IF you go as a SOLO vehicle ensure vehicle is well maintained and equipped and ENGAGE brain and Mk1 eyeballs.

Learn to walk any ground that you think is doubtful, be prepared to back out of any situation and find an alternative route.

Brendan

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:50 am


I admit I do also go it alone, but lucky I have not yet run in to trouble or gotten so stuck that I can not get going again.
I like to think its because I use common sense & that I am familiar in my own vehicle and know what its limits are. Still you are right, there should be more than one vehicle when you go out on an adventures.

Jas

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:23 am

I admit I do also go it alone, but lucky I have not yet run in to trouble or gotten so stuck that I can not get going again.


Are we still talking about driving here?

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PostSubject: Re: He Git It Wrong Again   Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:37 am

I have never been stuck. If I was, I would still be there :-)

It is a risk solo driving in the middle of nowhere. But greenlaning in most places in the UK is usually at the most an inconvenience if you are on your own if you get stuck.

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