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 Are You Frightened Of Electronics

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Assassin
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PostSubject: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:57 am

Many people view vehicle electronics with suspicion, are you one of these, and why is this the case? do you buy an older vehicle which is simple and devoid of electronics to avoid this alleged problems that modern electronics supposedly cause.
lol!

Are people justified in being frightened of vehicle electronics? no not really because they are often so reliable that they never fail in most vehicles unless they are neglected or abused, and most vehicle breakdowns are mechanically related and not electronically related. Lets face a few realities, no modern vehicle would pass an emissions test without electronics, nor would they provide the basic connectivity such as MP3 connections, or mobile phone connections such as bluetooth that many take for granted, then we have ABS systems, traction control, and active suspension systems which work together to keep us safe.

Where do we draw the line though? personally i like a coil spring to control suspension on 4X4's and not an air pipe connected to a sensor and a microchip which i think is pretty excessive with all the other safety systems already fitted.

What are other peoples thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:19 am


Thats a good point. - Here is what i think....

I suppose for me I share a similar view. I feel more confient in a vehicle that is more mechanical based than electronic.

A good example of this is the original 70 series landcruiser. My dad had a Troop Carrier. It was coiled front and leaf at rear with a 3.0 td engine. There were electrics but they were to the minimum windows and heating etc.

On my currnet truck there are quite a fue electrics but more towars ECU and climate control Retaining IFS and Rear coils, fixed roll bars no traction control, no hill decent control or hill start assist.
I was skeptical at first but over the years i have come to rely on this vehicle regardles of its engine electronics.

Ive been fortunate lately and driven alot of new 4x4's.
From the vw touareg v10 to volvo xc90 to the RR supercharged and Disco 4. Even the new Landcruiser 200 series 4.5v8 is very electronic based.
For the perpose of day to day driving or uk touring and towing where a brand garage is 20 miles away i would not take much notic of the vehicles electronic bias. Simply enjot it.

Off Road and overland is a completely different mind set for me. I suppose if I owned the above vehicles, over time I would build up the confidence and dependance, similar to what I have in my Terracan then i would probably not take much notice of the mass of electronics.
But the way I look at it, if a shock absorber breaks or a tyre is damaged you replace it. Electronic problems can be hard to diagnose and repair, especialy if you can only sort out the problem by taking the vehicle to the "Brand" garage and using their software that you cant get anywere else to diagnose the problem.

But at this moment in time i feel that many new Propper 4x4's including the well designed and built Discovery 4, is a Off Road Vehicle basicaly controlled by SKYNET.

So Yes I am Frightened Of Electronics. affraid

TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:24 am

One word YES

We do have a D3 we let the garage worryabout it not us.,
Have done 2 trips in Europe one down to Croatia, and second the landy rally 11 countries in 9 days, no problems at all.

had a few electikity problems at home just had moter collected or took to garage and had a loan car.

If in Europe againe they would collect the car and supply me with a replacement.

Only worry is if they gave a us a small car we would not be able to get are camping stuff in. clinking teacups


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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:27 pm

It is interesting, particularly people being frightened of electronics when most breakdowns are mechanical, the largest failures on 4X4's are as follows:

Wheel bearings.
Exhausts.
Steering rods, track rods / track rod ends.
Tyres.
Suspension bushes.
Shock absorbers.
Underbody protection (manufacturer supplied and fitted)
Propshafts / Universal/guibo joints.
Brakes.
Wheel rims. (steel and alloy)
Clutches.
Coil / leaf springs.
Propshafts.
Wheel studs.
Fuel tanks.

Down in 87th place on the list is the first electronic problem, ABS wheel sensors, then the braking system reverts back to a manual system, so no problems with being immobilised.

Down in 91st place is the airflow meter, most damage is from wading and the ingress of water into the unit. Many will not immobilise the vehicle as most have an inbuilt "limp home" facility, this puts in a "default value" which allows your engine to run, albeit rough and down on power.

So we can actually put this into context, the first 86 faults are purely mechanical and not electrical, and these figures were taken from all popular 4X4's from 1995 to 2010 and only cover true 4x4's, not crossovers, not soft roaders, just true 4X4's of all makes and types.

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:34 pm

I HATE ELECTRICS WITH A PASSION,,,,,,,,,,,,, censored censored


BUT I LIVE WITH THEM,,,,,,

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:34 am

Assassin I would be interested in seeing that list. Any chance you can point me in the right direction or paste it in here?
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:10 am

If I were to go overlanding in my d2 I would invest in a nanocom diagnostics kit which is about £300. But the bigger issue is using crud fuel in a td5. It doesn't like it. a 200tdi is more agricultural and get away with lower quality fuel.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:11 am

Will see if they will let me publish it, it was a piece of research and copyrighted.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:16 am

chally2 wrote:
If I were to go overlanding in my d2 I would invest in a nanocom diagnostics kit which is about £300. But the bigger issue is using crud fuel in a td5. It doesn't like it. a 200tdi is more agricultural and get away with lower quality fuel.

Thats interesting.

Is a TD5 engine common rail where as the 200tdi is not? Could this be a reason poor quality fuel disagrees with the TD5 Lump?

Or does the older 200tdi have less sophisticated fuel pump or filter than the TD5 so it doesn't mint the crud fuel?

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:03 am

the biggest problem we have with clients vehicles is after market wiring, and the dreaded kenlowe fan just 2 examples...
wiring, had one guy who kept blowing the 60amp fuse.. took a French dealer 3 days to rip it all out and put things right.
Kenlowes, getting so hot that the glue melts.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:08 am

Mandy
What's after market wiring got to do with "electronics" they are two very different things

I'm very happy to work on Defender electrics but I won't have anything to do with the electronic side

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:58 pm

I'm frightened of modern electronics on vehicles, but more because I don't understand them.

I'm getting more confident at fault finding/rectifying electrical faults on more basic systems, but I'm not so good on installing new circuits - I can follow instructions, but wouldn't know where to start with knowing what rating of wire/fuse/relay etc etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:25 pm

Chris
Defender electrics are fairly easy. Just follow the colours. Like you I didn't work on them as they developed...
If you're following a wiring diagram. Trace only the circuit you want.
DON'T use a multi metre to trace faults. They work with only one strand of wire connected but not with a bulb. Get a test lamp. I have more than one. Another trick is a metre of wire with a fuse fitted and small croc clips on each end. Again two are handy. One for live and one for earth.

Here are the Lucas wiring colours. Always good to have so you know where each wire should be going

http://www.vord.net/cars/wiring/colours.php

HTH

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:22 am

Cheers Mike - sound advice as per usual thumbsup

Thanks Assassin for the PM - all useful stuff thumbsup


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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:32 pm

Hillbilly Raider is actually correct, some aftermarket electrical fitments which draw a high surge on start up can affect a vehicles electronics by creating a surge or power spike, it does depend to a large degree on the vehicle, its age, and the quality of its electronics, particularly how well protected they are from spikes.

Main culprits are aftermarket electric fans, high powered lighting which can be switched on together, and other intermittent loads such as older fridges which switch on and off regularly or electric winches which do the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:40 pm

Assassin wrote:
Hillbilly Raider is actually correct, some aftermarket electrical fitments which draw a high surge on start up can affect a vehicles electronics by creating a surge or power spike, it does depend to a large degree on the vehicle, its age, and the quality of its electronics, particularly how well protected they are from spikes.

Main culprits are aftermarket electric fans, high powered lighting which can be switched on together, and other intermittent loads such as older fridges which switch on and off regularly or electric winches which do the same.

If you perchased a kenlow fan, or a set of Piaa 520 driving lights, should you use the supplyed wireing and loom? Or would it be best to buy heavy duty electrical supplys? Like: http://www.4x4overlandtravel.com/t384-vehicle-wiring-products
Or is it in the way that you wire the items up? With fuses and relays etc?

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:08 pm

Yes HB is right BUT the fault lays with the owner.
Don't even think about electrical specialists. They use Scotch Locks. I jest not. Mainly for speed of time. Stuff the knackered wiring loom and the later fire.

Again though I get people telling me I don't know how to do the job. Something I've been doing for years
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:38 pm

its seems i should have been a little clearer with my post and said INCORRECT fitting of aftermarket wiring.
No everyone has the knowledge to fit these things themselves and as was the case with my client ...spent an absolute fortune paying a so called professional to do the job and an absolute fortune having it ripped out and fitted correctly.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:35 am

I've never really been a fan of spot lights and light bars etc so usually these sort of things are the first thing I remove from any new vehicle, including any of the extra wiring.

the 130 I had was a direct release utilities one and had loads of extra circuits fitted which had just had the item from the end cut off - ended up removing absolutely all of the extra wiring after it started to drain the battery overnight.

The only additional wiring the 90 has is a split charge system and fortunatley that all came as a kit with instructions.

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:40 am

Where "work" is concerened..I suggest you look at some of the things that Special Vehicles do. Also take a good look inside and art the wiring of the early "Camel" vehicles.....

I also suggest you look at the krap work that one UK Specialist sends out.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:14 am


I have 1x set of Piaa 520s, 1x set of extra reversing lamps 55watt and 1x set of daytime running lights LED. I got OEC to wire them all in. From what I can tell they are done correctly. The driving lights came with their own wireing loom which is of quite a high quality. Ive had no problems in 2 years. But thats all the extra wireing I have had done.

On my pick up when I had 2x sets of LightForce 170 lamps on the roof of my truck they also came suppled with all the wireing and loom. I had these installed by a compitant motor electritian and what resulted was a that due to the poor quality of the LightForce wireing it resulted in a minor electrical fire.

I will point out that I now realise that 6x extra lights are completely unnecessary. The Piaas i had on the front bumper were ample enough. I suppose my mind set at the time was it looks "cool". But when you have 4x lightforce 170s that go 2 miles and all there is in Devon is fog its quite pointless.

When I had my superwinch ep9000 installed and wired up OEC fitted a switch between the winch and battery. This was to avoid any unnecessary battery power loss and to avoid acidental use or other persons missuse. Overall I was very happy with both the product and the wireing. I used the winch 1x or 2x a month mostly for recovery of trees or logs that had been felled and during a time period of 2 years I had no issues with either winch or electrical equipment.

It is far better to do it right, I often closely oversee any work being done to my truck by any company to ensure that the highest standard and quality are being used. For every good reliable persons or company out there I have found that there are atleast 2x chancers and time wasters.

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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:19 am

Good choice of company.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:37 am

My preferred choice is always to make up my own wiring looms, even though they may be supplied with their own looms, this is to ensure the quality of components are of the quality i like, not the cheaper quality looms and fitments which a number of companies supply with their products. In addition i can overspec the wire so it has a much greater factor of safety by being able to handle higher loads then is required by the circuit.

Many of these companies never see their wiring looms as thay are increasingly made in countries like China or Korea and are of poorer quality than would be expected, the only time they actually see them is as packaged, finished products which are moved into the kits before dispatch.

Would i use fuses? always, for what it costs for a small fusebox from VWP it is always wise to fit one, and with four fuse holders inside it will do four circuits instead of one, or six circuits if you opt for the larger fuse box.

Would i use relays? again the answer is always as it is the correct way to install a circuit, and again relay sockest are pennies from VWP, so a quality professional finish for less than the cost of an electrician who may use scotchlocks.

In addition i would always use the correct crimping tool, and always double crimp any crimp connectors, these are a few pounds, but last a lifetime, so are value for money. Where uninsulated terminals are used i also solder them once they have been crimped, this ensures a quality finish and trouble free circuit.
Supporting and running circuit wiring correctly is vital, i always use rubber grommets when passing through panels, and believe me not a lot of people do which means short circuits when the insulation chafes on the metal, and with no fuses it means fires. Supporting wiring and wiring harnesses correctly is vital, i always aim for 12" (300mm) support centres, and let the wiring sag a little between supports as it needs this slack to compensate for vehicle and vehicle component movement, particularly on a 4X4.
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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:09 am

VWP do a wide range of wiring products so can be useful as a one stop shop. However some of their prices can be a bit on the steep side. For instance one of the fuse boxes we sell at £31 inc VAT the identical one on VWP is £32.91 + VAT which is £39.41. That is a big price difference! Cable we sell for £6 inc VAT is £6.35 + VAT or £7.62. That is about 27% more for both items

So VWP does a wide range of products, but you can pay for the convience

I see lots of prices and offers such as free carriage. There is no such thing as a free lunch (or carriage Razz ) so it is a case of buyer beware.

Many items are made in China/Korea/Taiwan etc including many of the big well known names. Just because it is made in China etc it does not mean poor quality. Quality is set by the initial buyer and the quality control set by the buyer. Yes tat can come from China so can well made items.

So do your research.


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PostSubject: Re: Are You Frightened Of Electronics   Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:14 am

Assassin

A very good post with very sound advice.

I much prefere Lucar connectors crimped, soldered and covered correctly.

There is one fridge and "intelligent" battery pack manufacturer who ueses the red, blue and yelly crimped only terminals. I'm not interested in that sort of work.

Yes Brenden VWP can be expensive so do you do ALL Lucas wiring colours in ALL sizes. VWP do
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