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 Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?

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OllyD
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PostSubject: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:12 am

Hi there,

I am in the fortunate position of having £10,000 to spend on a vehicle for adventurous weekends away, longer road trips and eventually a grand expedition. I am very keen on Land Rover so will base my post on the assumption that this is the best there is BUT I am open to other suggestions.

I would like to buy a Land Rover Defender 110 300 Tdi 5 door station wagon. This seems to me the perfect base vehicle for adding a roof tent, an awning, a fridge etc. with go anywhere capabilities, able to carry up to 5 people (if the rear is storage only) and the added benefit of the pre-Td5 landies being easier to repair if I do find myself somewhere very remote.

However, I live in London so my vehicle must be compliant with the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) so it seems I have two options:

1)Buy a Tdi for £7k and fit a filter (£3k approx) to make it compliant with the LEZ. There are plenty of Tdis around for this money but spending £3k on a filter is very painful to contemplate

2)Look for a post-2006 Td5 (cars released after this date are compliant with the LEZ) for £10k. It will be tougher to find a much newer car for a comparatively low price and it is bound to have done a lot of miles in a short space of time. Plus harder to repair if it breaks in the wilds.

I would appreciate your advice on what you think is the best option and please feel free to point out any considerations I have missed.

Thanks in advance.

Olly (ex-Dragoman overlander)
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Assassin
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:20 pm

Alternatively you could look at the Toyota Land Cruiser, Mitsubishi Shogun, or Nissan Patrol for a larger hardbody vehicle or many of the numerous pick-ups which come in a variety of configurations.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:52 pm

Thanks Assassin. Yes, I will consider widening my search to include the sturdy Japanese offerings too.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:43 am

The problem seems to be your assumption, and such an assumption could often end up with you buying a vehicle which is neither suitable for purpose, very unreliable, or ultimately something you buy and you have to live with or sell for a loss.

Many people on here are Land Rover fans, many of us are not, and most who are Land Rover fans understand their shortcomings and many love working on them; many of us prefer the reliability of other vehicles which may be from other origins and prefer not to be constantly working on them; hence the reason I ask such questions. Ultimately its your choice and we would all like it to be an informed decision irrespective of which side of the fence we sit on so you get the correct vehicle to suit your needs.
Is the vehicle to be a daily driver or a second vehicle? what sort of travelling will you be doing or expecting to do as this affects your parameters considerably? do you need ultimate off road ability or are you planning trips where comfort takes precedence or a higher priority over pure off road ability.

On the issue of tents, you suggest a roof tent, is this an assumption of being the best thing for you as they are very limited in their capabilities when modern tents are quickly and easily erected, roof tents mean you have limited space for two which is fine for you and wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend for overnighting or shorter trips as they only have room for two to sleep and sit up to dress. You cannot cook in them, they are prone in winds, and being on a vehicle in windy conditions can mean the vehicle is shaking all night. By comparison a tent offers many choices, it can be large enough for two or more people, many mean you can stand up in them and have room for cooking inside during bad weather, and not being attached to the vehicle means it is removed along with its kit so your fuel consumption increases, and you can fit a roofrack to carry lighter equipment on an expedition.

I must make it clear that I am in no way criticising your decisions, merely trying to make you think about what you actually want and why you want it, by doing this it means you ask questions and purchase correctly instead of being disappointed; and remain in the fold so to speak, and many members will offer suggestions and advice such as I have so you make decisions correctly and enjoy your pastime.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:17 am

Awkward eh Olly? London's Low Emission Zone is a real pain, doubtless conceived by a bunch of ill-informed bureaucrats who just wanted to get rid of all Chelsea Tractors regardless of what their function is. Grrrr!!!! Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:49 am

Assassin, is right a load of different motors to chose from, I am a Land Rover man, their are people with all sorts of motors on this forum, so witch ever you chose their will be people to help with chosen motor.
Thats what is good about this forum we don't slag off other peoples motors.

All the best in you choice, and remember we love photos. clinking teacups
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:21 am

I think when buying second hand, the vehicles previous use is more important than model.

A L200 used to go shopping everyday would be a better buy than a Defender that has spent 10 years towing a 3 ton digger on a trailer, off road. But then a Defender that has only been used for camping trips on the weekend would be a much better buy than a Jap 4x4 that has spent everyday launching a fishing boat in the salt water.

There is a second-hand 4x4 dealer near us that whatever car people buy off him, its history is always 'one owner - a lady living in town, never towed, never off-road....'

I love my Land Rover, because of what it is, not despite what it is
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:45 am

Thank you all for your replies.

Assassin - I appreciate your considered and comprehensive response. I think my Land Rover assumption was based more on romantic notions of owning an icon than thorough research. I still believe the LR is a strong choice but having digested your reply and after some more reading I am now seriously considering Toyota and other options.

To answer your questions:

The vehicle will be a daily drive and my sole vehicle. Most of its use will be in the UK and on the continent. I have a 3 week roam around Europe planned for July that I hope will be the first major outing for my new ride. Ultimate off road capability is not the most important feature but I want a vehicle that will be capable, with upgrades and work if necessary, of a serious expedition; London to Cape Town for example. My desire for a roof tent is not based on experience, more on the fact that they look damn cool and seem easy to erect. You make good points about their shortcomings which are certainly food for thought. There will be three of us travelling around Europe so we will need a ground tent as well.

Now turning my eyes towards Toyota; I have been reading the praise for the Land Cruiser 80 but from what I have read a decent one is hard to find these days and they are thirsty. The 100 seems a good choice but the presence of a turbo and plenty electronics worries me in case of trips to the real wilderness. Very long and remote excursions are not going to be a regular occurrence though. If any Toyota fans have any advice on choosing the best all round Land Cruiser it would be gladly received. I appreciate that what I want, the perfect vehicle for all occasions, doesn't exist but that's why I am here; to learn from your experience.

Thanks again.

Olly
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:11 pm

I wouldn't say land rover were massively more unreliable than others. The reason you find land rover owners do spend time on them is that for many its a hobby and the biggest plus for me is that you actually can. Upto the d3 they are basic and easy to repair yourself should anything go wrong. The only thing i dislike about landrovers is they insisted on using engines that were too small and they should have had diff locks as standard. I know some of the japanese trucks have diff locks fitted standard and thats a big plus but i guess it all depends on what you are used too. I grew up with land rovers hence my bias but there are some very good other 4x4's out there too. I think the failing of all modern 4x4's and what worries people travelling to remote places is the electrics. Modern 4x4's have such complicated and numerous wiring systems that a major failure of this type in the back end of nowhere and your average bush mechanic wont have a clue, give em an ole tdi and they'll know where to throw the hammer Wink
Unfortunately this is classed as progress and here to stay so at some point in the future overlanders will have to embrace this technology because there wont be a choice once the old ones have rusted away Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:41 pm

jellybenitez has hit the nail well 'n' truly on the head - electronics! Great when they work, an absolute pain when they don't.

Recently I bought a Proton off ebay for 'er indoors as it had only had 50,000 miles on the clock and was extremely cheap - £300 to be exact. Bargain I thought! Okay, being an older model (2001), you expect things like CV joints and so forth to give up, but after a couple of months of reliable motoring it decided it wasn't going to rev over 4,500 rpm, plus it would shudder all the time. Great! In effect this meant it had no acceleration, plus on a motorway it would take an age to reach cruising speed. Took it to the local garage for a diagnostic check and sure enough the problem was a faulty ECU.

The cure, find a secondhand ECU or scrap the car.

The result, car scrapped for £100 and she now is the proud owner of an ultra-reliable 2002 Honda Civic - for now that is!

The electronics on a motor can give up at any time, that's obvious, but whereas in the UK we can solve the problem relatively easily, when they go wrong in a remote area in the third world, one is royally ****ed!

roamingman runs a Discovery 3 - or did for a good while as the lease is about up - and that motor was really sound. Is it any better or worse than a Landcruiser, Patrol, etc. - who can say? All I know is like jellybenitez I really don't know what the future holds for those who like overland travel. Will the bush mechanics of the world start arming themselves with diagnostic equipment, I think not? Apart from purchasing an older model of 4x4 devoid of all the buttons & bells, I really don't know what the answer is. scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:57 pm



roamingman runs a Discovery 3 - or did for a good while as the lease is about up - and that motor was really sound. Is it any better or worse than a Landcruiser, Patrol, etc. - who can say? All I know is like jellybenitez I really don't know what the future holds for those who like overland travel. Will the bush mechanics of the world start arming themselves with diagnostic equipment, I think not? Apart from purchasing an older model of 4x4 devoid of all the buttons & bells, I really don't know what the answer is. scratch [/quote]

Hi Tom yes D3 now gone and you know it did so well of road, 130 camper ready to fire up tomorrow, then just brakes to bleed, lights to wire up, new exhaust to fit, then MOT. clinking teacups

D1 V8 been trying to put new front discs and pads, + bearings trouble trying to then fit calipers, for the last 2 weeks when it was not snowing gales or raining, me and my son discovered yesterday we have the wrong discs, so just get new ones and that will be MOT'ed. only lacking the funds. angry
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:07 am

unfortunately electronics are the way of the future (TOM) and those vehicles without them are scarce and becoming even scarcer, this aside though, electronics are very reliable and you are more likely to have mechanical breakdowns then electronic.

Back to the topic:

You now have a short list of four vehicles to choose from, there are others worthy of consideration, but its a start and the obvious thing to do is research these vehicles and the different models to see what would suffice for your needs. We can pretty much dismiss the roof tent at this stage as it doesn't really fit for three people so you can look at four berth tents and see what is available at what price, and what gives you room to cook and eat inside, and the choice is vast.

With a shortlist of vehicles comparisons for modifications can be done, and what modifications would be the best for your budget, to begin I would suggest buying six steel wheels for your vehicle as they are cheap, and fit them with good all terrain tyres such as Cooper ST/STT depending upon the terrain you intend tackling. This leaves your predominantly road biased tyres and alloy rims to be swapped for your steel rims with off road tyres for when you need them, and gives you two spare rims and tyres, it is the most cost effective way to operate as road biased tyres operate best on road and last longer than all terrains.
Next I would look at uprated shock absorbers as they are a must for a heavily loaded vehicles and I would suggest gas shocks as they operate better under heavy loads and extreme conditions such as severe off roading as they generate a lot of heat.

From here its a case of what you may need, will you need long range fuel tanks? or will you carry spare jerry cans of fuel, do you need an onboard water tank permanently fitted to the vehicle? or can you use plastic water tanks, any permanently fitted equipment adds to the vehicles weight and this increases your fuel consumption when in general use.

There are many other modifications you can make, but good off road tyres and uprated (preferably gas) shocks make the greatest difference for the least outlay. If you read the forums there is a mine of information which you can trawl through for ideas, it is a little long winded but worth doing as getting things right can save you lots of heartache and cash, and you can exploit others experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:19 pm

electronics...ahhh that old argument . angry ...great if you live in europe where theres a dealer or good garage around the corner to fix it......thats why..9 out of 10 people down here dont like em,,,,,D2 wheel bearing-hub assembley £200+ D1 wheel bearings £7 each so you can carry a couple of spare bearings...and you cant get hubs that easy....think you can see my point....old technoligy works down here.... thumbsup

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:26 pm

And I thought the light bulb was high technology in your part of the world Tuggy?
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:30 pm

noooooooo

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:36 am

Thank you all.

Assassin - some great points there, thanks.

I am still very interested in the Toyota LC 80 and the 100 but their running costs (fuel, tax, insurance) are a concern. I have therefore widened my search and the smaller Colorado, 2000-2002 with D4D engine is now a serious contender. Whether a Colorado is spacious enough for 3-4 people and gear is another question. I need to get out there and test drive.

The search continues.

Olly
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:37 am

Another good choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:39 am

mitsubisi delica.....look on e bay..... scratching chin





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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:55 am

Nice ride, Tuggy!
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:58 am

pre electronic,2.8 turbo diesel auto,seven seater,,,,,,i have had 2 of them there great tick all the boxes for me,,,, thumbsup

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:23 am

Those must be strong trees supporting your hammock!
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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:02 am

tuggy wrote:
mitsubisi delica.....look on e bay..... scratching chin
Meeeoooowwwwwww!!! Although you do have a point videoman, that tree on the right was bolt upright before Tuggy climbed in! Razz Razz Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:19 am

ha,ha,ha,. Laughing ....twats..... laughing pound

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:31 am

Hook, line and sinker ... reel 'em in. Laughing

As it happens, a Delica is a really good call as an overland vehicle 'pre-electronics'. I'm actually considering purchasing one myself for the Moroccan trip, we'll see.

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PostSubject: Re: Land Rover overland truck - Tdi or Td5?   Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:30 am

An interesting topic this one, I have been watching with some interest as up until today I had the same quandary.

I have been having a similar conversation with the mechanic at a small independent Land Rover garage.

Unfortunatly it seem the electronics are the way of the future due to the fact that in the parts of the world most of us inhabit the constantly beuracracy is pushing to meet emission targets set by governments, rightly or wrongly this is the path vehicle manufacturers are taking and sooner or later it will only be the areas the bush mechanics inhabit that still have the older vehicles as most other places the older vehicles will have rotted away well especialy series 1 Disco's Very Happy

Anyway back to subject, I have spent the last month looking at a replacement vehicle for my ML after it went skinny dipping on Chrismas eve.

After a post on here I short listed 4 vehicles,
1. Toyota land cruisers after looking at 2 Which were imports from the early to mid 1990s ( all I could find in my budget) I discounted them as being too old and having too higher mileage for day to day use.

2. Mitsubishi L200 pick up, gave them a miss as after a bit of research have too many problems around the 100k mark although the one I took for a test drive was very nice and had loads of extras plus a bargain price but at £300 for a cam belt change decided to walk on by.

3. Mitsubishi Shogun again I loved the test drive but it did seem big and cumbersome and I didn't feel the drive was very involving, the steering was vague and with large plastic bumpers and marginal ground clearance I thought I was back in ML terrortory. I know it's a very good vehicle with loads of off road pedigree, but I had a nagging feeling if I bought one I would have kicked myself a few months down the road.

4. And finally the Land Rover Discovery, and I know, I know they get bad press for reliability but parts are really competitive and theres a myriad of extras for green laning or over landing and I thought if I bought the latest series 2 I could find hopefully all the niggles might have been sorted out by late 2004.

So I can now say as from today I am a Land Rover owner, a dark Metalic blue 2004 face lift Landmark model 105k full Land Rover service history a couple of small car park dings externally and a pristine interior not even having the small tear in the lower part of the drivers seat which pretty much all the other 4 I looked at had.
I am well chuffed with my purchase, let's hope it stays that way.

Oh I did also look at a couple of Defenders but there is no way I could have lived with one day to day and the prices for 1980 and 1990 models unbelievable. If I needed to get bales of hay up top field then that would have been my first choise but I don't have a top field or animals to feed the hay to.

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